Curiouser and Curiouser!

Curiouser and Curiouser! on lisp http://matt.blogs.it/ RSS feed for topic lisp Copyright 2006 Matt Mower Squib/0.1 self@mattmower.com self@mattmower.com en-gb Lisp me! Fri, 31 Jan 2003 22:52:30 +0000 Can anyone help me out with this?  Or know somebody else who can? So I wanna learn Lisp.  But I see there is Lisp, then there is CLOS (or Common Lisp something something) but there is also Scheme (which may also be CLOS). Confused yet?  Cos I am. What I'd like is someone Lisp savvy to let me in on the secret of which is the Lisp to learn these days.  And, if possible, recommend a good Windows based environment for using it. <HR> Addendum: I've come across a list of <A href="http://www.lisp.org/table/systems.htm#free">Common Lisp implementations</A>.  So that's a pool to look at but I'd still be very happy to hear recommendations. http://matt.blogs.it/entries/00001126.html Aspects of Lisp Wed, 12 Feb 2003 10:11:14 +0000 <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <A href="http://radio.weblogs.com/0106046/2003/02/11.html#a230">Design Patterns in Functional languages</A>. A couple months ago, I <A href="http://radio.weblogs.com/0106046/2002/07/14.html">asked</A> what Design Patterns would look like in a Scheme.  Ted Leung has the <A href="http://www.sauria.com/blog/2003/02/11#40">answer</A>, in the form of a presentation by Peter Norvig.  Lots of people talking about functional languages these days: <A href="http://www.cookcomputing.com/blog/archives/000209.html#209">Charles Cook</A>, <A href="http://radio.weblogs.com/0102385/2003/02/12.html">Chris Double</A>, <A href="http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/blog/blogView?showComments=true&entry=3222404468">James Robertson</A>.  Even Sam Gentile's picking up on <A href="http://dotnetweblogs.com/sgentile/Comments/359.aspx">generative programming</A>.  Something's in the air, for sure. [<A href="http://radio.weblogs.com/0106046/">Gordon Weakliem's Radio Weblog</A>]</BLOCKQUOTE> Back when I was involved, full-time, in Java development one of my biggest interests was <A href="http://www.eclipse.org/aspectj/">AspectJ</A> (which I notice is now part of the Eclipse project).  We were building a dynamic, adaptive, component framework and I could see that aspects provided for some interesting solutions to thorny problems.  At the time AJ was still beta'ish and the language evolving from release-to-release so I was biding my time.  Then the company went phut! But in reading the <A href="http://www.sauria.com/blog/2003/02/11#40">answer</A> above I get a hint about what is drawing me toward Lisp. <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> If Java had macros ( in the Lisp sense and not C-style macros ), we could integrate AOP in a seamless way, without having to write custom compilers and all the rest of the stuff that the AspectJ guys are doing. And besides, the AspectJ folks are taking all the lessons that they learned doing Meta Object Protocols for Lisp/CLOS and repackaging them as AOP.</BLOCKQUOTE> I gotta get me a copy of Paul Graham's Lisp book... http://matt.blogs.it/entries/00001155.html Singing for your Lisp Sun, 16 Feb 2003 09:35:03 +0000 Does anyone have an old copy of <A href="http://images-eu.amazon.com/images/P/0133708756.01.LZZZZZZZ.gif"><IMG height=140 src="http://images-eu.amazon.com/images/P/0133708756.01.MZZZZZZZ.jpg" width=91 align=left border=0></A> Paul Graham's ANSI Common Lisp <A href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0133708756/qid=1045387588/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_2_1/202-2084505-8187038">http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0133708756/qid=1045387588/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_2_1/202-2084505-8187038</A> That is surplus to requirements? I'm really keen to learn Lisp, think this is the right book, but can't justify spending the money on it.  The public library system in south London is a little short on Lisp so I'm hoping somebody out there may have an unwanted copy. For now I'm using online tutorials (including Graham's more advanced Lisp book which is online) but it would be much easier with a good book. http://matt.blogs.it/entries/00001165.html Closures open new avenues Tue, 18 Feb 2003 21:17:46 +0000 Lisp really is a fascinating language.  When I read Paul Graham talking about Arc and CLOS thus: <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> I personally have never needed object-oriented abstractions. Common Lisp has an enormously powerful object system and I've never used it once. I've done a lot of things (e.g. making hash tables full of closures) that would have required object-oriented techniques to do in wimpier languages, but I have never had to use CLOS.</BLOCKQUOTE> At first I was inclined to dismiss it, after all lots of people denigrate OOP or say they don't need it.  However already I can kind of see what he means. I'm just running through tutorials at the moment, messing with functions and closures and messing with lists of functions and lists of data and...  Well, lets just say it's opening some new pathways. I still like Java, I'm still happy to code in Java, but I'm definitely enjoying Lisp and wonder about where it might take me. http://matt.blogs.it/entries/00001180.html MultiJava Sat, 08 Mar 2003 13:08:02 +0000 <A href="http://multijava.sourceforge.net/index.shtml">MultiJava</A> is an open project to add open classes and symmetric multiple dispatch to Java. Open classes allow one to add to the set of methods that an existing class supports without creating distinct subclasses or editing existing code.  Multiple dispatch, found in languages such as allows the method invoked by a message send to depend on the run-time classes of any subset of the argument objects. In concert with AspectJ this would appear to add some very powerful capabilities to Java. Of course <A href="http://lcgapp.cern.ch/project/cls/greenspun.html">Greenspun</A> might argue that you should just use Lisp in the first place... ;-) http://matt.blogs.it/entries/00001263.html The best open source Lisp Tue, 13 Jan 2004 07:59:48 +0000 <blockquote><a href="http://lemonodor.com/archives/000671.html">The Best Open Source Lisp</a>. Bill Clementson asks an interesting question: “<a href="http://home.comcast.net/~bc19191/blog/040109.html">What is the best open source lisp?</a>” His answer: “<a href="http://home.comcast.net/~bc19191/blog/040111.html">PLT Scheme”</a>. In a way, this is in line with my opinion, which is that there is currently no open source lisp that is even “good”, in comparison to the commercial versions. There are a couple open source lisps that are making a lot of progress and seem to be strongly positioned for future greatness, but they're not there yet. [<a href="http://lemonodor.com/">lemonodor</a>]</blockquote> I was starting to get into Lisp last year but couldn't devote enough time to it. I was also a little put off by the cost of Lisp implementations. PLT Scheme and it's IDE DrScheme look useful. http://matt.blogs.it/entries/00001797.html Lisped Java Tue, 04 May 2004 22:27:15 +0100 On the subject of dynamic languages for Java I wondered whether anyone had created embeddable <a href="http://www.apl.jhu.edu/%7Ehall/lisp.html">Common Lisp</a>.  Turns out they had and it's called <a href="http://sourceforge.net/projects/jatha/">Jatha</a>. http://matt.blogs.it/entries/00002189.html Ok I guess I'm a little offended Thu, 05 Aug 2004 16:41:15 +0100 <blockquote><a href="http://lemonodor.com/archives/000871.html">Great Hackers</a>. Paul Graham has posted <a href="http://paulgraham.com/gh.html">Great Hackers</a>, an essay based on his keynote at <a href="http://www.oreillynet.com/oscon2004/">OSCON</a>. <blockquote> For example, if your company wants to write some software, it might seem a prudent choice to write it in Java. But when you choose a language, you're also choosing a community. The programmers you'll be able to hire to work on a Java project won't be as smart as the ones you could get to work on a project written in Python. [2] And the quality of your hackers probably matters more than the language you choose. Though, frankly, the fact that good hackers prefer Python to Java should tell you something about the relative merits of those languages. [...] </blockquote> [<a href="http://lemonodor.com/">Lemonodor</a>] </blockquote> As someone who quite likes Java and isn't quite so keen on Python I guess i'm one of the less smart programmers around. Bummer.  Does my interest in Lisp score me any points? http://matt.blogs.it/entries/00002422.html 80% less crufty Thu, 14 Jul 2005 12:38:08 +0100 About this time last year I was realising that <a href="http://www.lisp.org/">Lisp</a> probably wasn't the language for me. It introduced me to metaprogramming with macros, new ways of looking at OOP, and generally blew fuses in my mind. But it was also arcane and irregular. I could have handled the brackets if it were not for the generally cruftyness of the whole thing. Like Lucas I also found the <a href="http://feeds.feedburner.com/rufytech?m=53">naming ugly</a> although I don't think his strategy of aliasing is going to work out unless he only deals with his own code. I think that's why I like Ruby so much. It's full of <a href="http://www.whytheluckystiff.net/articles/seeingMetaclassesClearly.html">metaprogrammingy goodness</a> but with 80% less cruft. Also the regular syntax style makes it great for <a href="http://www.martinfowler.com/bliki/DomainSpecificLanguage.html">DSL's</a> which is not, I would hazard, going to be the case for Lisp. http://matt.blogs.it/entries/00002760.html Cruftyness isn't everything Fri, 15 Jul 2005 18:11:04 +0100 Ted Leung <a href="http://www.sauria.com/blog/2005/07/14#1345">noticed</a> my uninformed <a href="http://matt.blogs.it/2005/07/14.html#a1916">ramblings</a> yesterday about Lisp not being a suitable language for DSL's whilst pointing to another post from someone reminiscing about using Lisp for this very purpose. He also points to a video of a Lisper building a little language for parsers. I think my point about Lisp and DSL's was perhaps too strongly put. I guess what I was thinking was that I can imagine creating a DSL using Ruby which non-Ruby people could easily use. I think the ease with which PHP people start using Rails may be some small testament to this, or I may be stretching the evidence to fit my hypothesis. So my point is that Lisp DSL's are probably only of use to Lisp hackers since the DSL looks like Lisp and Lisp is crufty! :-) The <a href="http://www.xach.com/bt/dsl-in-lisp.mov.torrent">video</a> is really cool to watch though. It was very interesting to see someone so in command of his language go simply about solving a problem in this way. Worth watching whether you want to use Lisp or not. So, to summarize, I still think Lisp is way cool and I bow to the mastery of the Lisp hacker. Nevertheless, you'll prize my copy of the <a href="http://pragmaticprogrammer.com/titles/ruby/">PickAxe</a> from my cold, dead, hand! http://matt.blogs.it/entries/00002765.html All your symbols are belong to us Tue, 04 Oct 2005 10:43:12 +0100 I've now lost the trail of breadcrumbs which lead me here, but I just read an article by Brad Parker about his efforts to <a href="http://www.heeltoe.com/retro/cadr/index.html">revive the code from one of the MIT Lisp machines</a>. He and a co-conspirator have gotten an emulator running which allows the Lisp machine to boot and talk to the network. Practical? No. But I find the idea of a Lisp machine (a computer which is Lisp from the hardware upwards) intriguing so it's an interesting slice of history. If someone came up with a Lisp operating system for PC hardware I'd play with it. I guess a RubyMachine is too much to ask for :-) http://matt.blogs.it/entries/00002971.html Io, Io? What's all this then? Fri, 30 Dec 2005 22:07:44 +0000 I've been casting about recently for the next language I will learn. I tried Lisp in 2004 and while it gave me a healthy respect for meta programming I didn't really click with it. Then in October 2004 I fell over Ruby one time too many and decided to give it a try. It was love at 3rd sight! Over the last year I've spent quite a lot of my free time working in Ruby and it has been very rewarding. Recently I implemented the weblog tool I am using now with Ruby and Rails. I think Ruby is great. However if learning Ruby has taught me anything it's that the greatest power has come from new ways to think about solving problems. For example I now routinely think in terms of blocks in a way I could never have conceived of when I was a Java developer. So, lately, I've started wondering what other tricks I can learn. It has been on my mind for a while to try Smalltalk. Much like Lisp, Smalltalk is kind of revered as a hallowed and sacred language from which many good things we now enjoy have flowed. However I've seen some talk about <a href="http://iolanguage.com/">Io</a> lately and especially about the <a href="http://tech.rufy.com/articles/2005/12/27/classes-are-just-a-prototype-pattern">advantages of prototype based OO</a>. Today Dave Fayram showed me some Io code that was very intriguing. I think Smalltalk is going to have to wait! I've downloaded the Io binaries for MacOSX and an Io bundle for TextMate and over the weekend I hope to find enough time to learn some of the syntax and get a feel for the prototypy goodness. Wish me luck! http://matt.blogs.it/entries/00003127.html